The Cards of Marseilles

[Lillie]

In the chapter entitled 'The Cards Of Marseilles' Childermass gets out his tarot cards and does a reading for Vinculus. Vinculus then attempts to read the cards for Childermass.
Although Childermass says that the cards describe his life Vinculus is unable to read them and we are left with a reading with no interpretation.

I have tried to read that spread myself.
I would be interested in anyone else's interpretation as I believe that it could tell us a bit more about the enigmatic Mr Childermass.

It has been suggested that we look at each card in turn and try to interpret them.
I know I am not the only tarot reader here on FOEM, so lets get started!

(and until today I did not realise there was another word hidden within 'M****illes'....:))

[Crucifer]

Not being a tarot person, I can't help here, but I do find it very amusing that the word a.r.s.e. isn't allowed even in the context of the word Ma.r.s.e.illes... Can that be fixed somehow?

[Crucifer]

Double post. Sorry.

[segundus]

Whoops - my fault entirely. It made me laugh out loud that I did something as silly as that. Just as long as nobody mistypes Burger King I think we should be okay from this point onwards.. :)

[Lillie]

I can write arse now?
Woo hoo!!!!!! :)

Ok.

Tarot readings.
You don't need to know anything about tarot cards to join in.

This, here, are a modern printing of the Marseilles cards.
http://taroteca.multiply.com/photos/album/193/Marseilles

Although there are fixed meanings for tarot cards now (mostly meanings culled from the Golden Dawn) these did not exist back in 1800, in fact we know very little about how tarot cards were read back then.

So, look at the relevant card and say what you see if you want to join in.

Any interpretation is valid, especially if it fits the known facts or throws more light on them.

This is not about being right or wrong, it's about trying to guess what Clarke had in mind when she picked these cards for Childermass, and what Childermass himself saw when he looked at them and said they described his life.

[Lillie]

This is the first card in the spread.
XVIII La Lune (the moon)

http://taroteca.multiply.com/photos/album/193/Marseilles#35.jpg

As luck would have it this is one of the most obscure images in the whole deck.

What the hell is that lobster thing for?
What are the two animals and what are they doing?
What has all this to do with the moon?

Anyone care to speculate??

[Doktor Estrella]

The first thing that strikes me about the card is the balance between all of the images and if I had to hazard a guess, I would say that the animals were dogs and the lobster is there to show that the water is the ocean; these elements are influenced by the moon because the dogs would howl at it and the ocean's tides are created because of its gravitational pull.

According to this website (http://hubpages.com/hub/tarot-de-marseilles-explained), the moon card means different things in different positions:
Up: danger, illusions, nightmare
Down: masochism, disorder, jealousy
Professional, Spirituality: 2 stars
Love, Health: 1 star
Also, the site explains the significance of the positions (up is positive, reversed means negative) and that the star ratings show amount of the effect on certain areas, 1 star for low to 3 stars for excellent influence.

So, my understanding of it is that it would represent Childermass's present actions since it follows the layout that Childermass did for Vinculus. At its base level then, the interpretation would be that Childermass's current employment is dangerous and filled with illusions, which was a pretty accurate depiction of his current situation.

[Lillie]

I've looked at that site before, it seems OK for the meanings of the majors.
Shame they didn't do the minors too.

Other meanings I have come across for La Lune are
Disappointment, anxiety, oppression and illness (from the booklet that goes with my own TdM)

Generally back then it seems to have been considered a card of bad luck and of evil, possibly of witchcraft or the occult.

This seems to have been first published in 1781 in Monde Primitif by Court de Gebelin, though the piece itself which talks about tarot divination seems to have been written by someone known only as M. Le C de M

Eighteen, the Creation of the Moon & the Terrestrial animals, expressed by a Wolf & a Dog, to signify the Domestic animals & wild: this emblem is well selected, for the Dog & the Wolf are the only ones which howl at the aspect of this star, as if regretting the loss of the day. This character leads me to believe that this card once announced very-large misfortunes to those who went to consult the Fates, in it is pictured the line of the Tropic, that is the departure & the return of the Sun here leaving the comforting hope of a fine day & a better fortune. In addition, two Fortresses defend a pathway traced in blood, & a marsh finishes the picture of innumerable difficulties building up to destroy one, all adding to its sinister depiction.

Gebelin himself wrote this. Same date, same book.

Thus, the Moon that goes following the Sun is also accompanied by tears of gold & pearls, to show that it also contributes in its part to the advantages of the earth.
Pausanias teaches us in his description of Phocide, that according to the Egyptians, it was the Tears of Isis that flooded each year the waters of the Nile & which thus rendered fertile the lands of Egypt. The tales of this Country also speak about a drop or tear, which falls from the Moon at the time when the waters of the Nile must swell.
At the bottom of this card, one sees a crayfish or Cancer, either to mark the retrograde motion of the Moon, or to indicate that it is when the Sun & the Moon leave the sign of Cancer that the flood caused by their tears arrives, with the rising of the Dog Star that one sees in the following card.
It may even be the two reasons are joined together: it is very common to draw conclusions from a crowd of consequences, which form a mass too confusing, to be able to untangle a singular cause.
Two towers occupy the middle of the card, one at each side to indicate the two famous Pillars of Hercules, above & beyond which these two great luminaries never pass.
Between the two columns are two dogs which seem to bark at the Moon & to guard it: perfectly Egyptian ideas. In the unique allegories of these people, the Tropics are compared with two palaces each one guarded by a dog, which like faithful gatekeepers, restrained the stars to the middle of the skies without allowing them to slip towards one pole or the other.
These are not the illusions of ordinary pundits. Clement, himself Egyptian, since he came from Alexandria, & consequently ought to know what he was talking about, ensures us in his Tapestries [or Stromates, Liv. V.] that the Egyptians represented the Tropics under the figure of two Dogs, which, similar to gatekeepers or faithful guards, prevented the Sun & the Moon from penetrating further & going to the Poles.


Gebelin had a big Egyptian thing going on...
It was very fashionable then.


Both of the above have been translated from the french, but not by me.

Anyhow, them two from the French I mention because they would probably have been avaliable to Childermass, who could speak French.
There is nothing in the book to suggest that he used meanings like them, and a lot of Gebelin's stuff is pretty bizarre.

I have also been trying to find Etteilla's meanings, which would have been avaliable at that time, though they are very odd.


Another point you bring up is the timing sequence of the cards.
You suggest that the first card is his present situation with Norrell.
If that is the case how much of the spread would you consider to be the present and how much the future?
Because from the comment 'That is my life - there on the table' I would have assumed that a fair bit of the spread was recognisable as events that had happened.

I have heard that the lobster is something to do with the unconscious mind...
But really I have no idea.
The two dogs are either dogs, wolves, one of each or perhaps one of them is a hare.
The usual opinion is dog and wolf, the wild and the domesticated.

[Doktor Estrella]

I was going by the interpretation that Childermass did on Vinculus' cards; when he flipped the first card, it represented the present or what one's action were presently governed by. Logically, I'd have it represent the past since it was the first part of the line, but I assume that there is a particular order and significance to them by the way Clarke had Childermass first interpret Vinculus' cards.

The next card in the spread is XVI La Maison Dieu (The Tower of Destruction), reversed.

http://taroteca.multiply.com/photos/album/193/Marseilles#31.jpghttp://taroteca.multiply.com/photos/album/193/Marseilles#31.jpg

My best guess as to what it's significance is in this order is that it represents one's immediate actions; in Vinculus' cards, Childermass wasn't sure of the meaning when La Mat (The Fool) appeared in this position, but I believe that the fool was a representation of Vinculus himself.

Interestingly, the "Tarot de Marseilles Explained" website that I was using before interpreted the card as this:
Up: warning, conflict, difficulties
Down: choking, submission
Spirituality: 2 stars


Based off of that, I would say that this card represents Childermass' choice to continue in the employ of Mr. Norrell even though he has begun to employ more of his own methods of handling situations rather than following Norrell's instructions to the letter.

How does everyone else interpret the pictures in the card?

[Lillie]

The tower is one of them cards that are pretty self explanatory. (apart from those round things. No idea about them).
It is sometimes said to be the destruction of the Tower of Babel.

It's meaning is always destruction, sudden, unexpected and nasty, like the lightening that strikes the tower in the picture.

For any Harry Potter fans this is the card that Trelawney kept pulling in Half Blood Prince and which predicted Dumbledore's death on the tower.

A bloke called Joseph Maxwell who wrote one of the only English language books about the TdM says it's most basic meaning is war.
I don't know what else he said because the book is in the spare room and the whole of the bathroom has been shifted out of the bathroom and stuck in front of the spare room door.
But Maxwell's book is weird anyway.
Just about everything ever written about the TdM is weird, by the way. No one really knows what any of it means, but Maxwell tends to count everything (leaves, petals, weird ball things, anything countable really) and then go into this huge, weird numerology thing.
And if the numbers don't add up right he says that the card has become wrong over the centuries and ought to be corrected...

It's reversal is interesting, some say that a reversal makes the meaning it's opposite. ie. a good card becomes bad, a bad card becomes good. Other people just think it makes any card worse and makes a bad card even badder.

I don't know. I never use reversals.

I have never seen the reversed meaning given as 'choking, submission', but as we are reading the spread with the first card as the present, and presumable the cards moving into the future as they progress, and I don't see anything particularly bad happening to Childermass around this time, in fact not until he gets shot, then perhaps it is the right one, it seems to fit his relationship to Norrell to some extent.

Not that I ever saw him submitting very much.
He always seemed to be the one making Norrell do what he, Childermass, thought he should do, and he seemed to stay because he wanted too.

[Doktor Estrella]

Does anyone else find it odd that the card named the Tower of Destruction, literally translates from the French "la maison dieu" as "the home God?"

[Lillie]

That French title is usually translated as 'The House of God'.

But this card in particular has many names.

In modern packs with English titles it's usually just called 'The Tower'.

The earliest reference to the name of this card was 'The Arrow', in the 15th century.
But it has also been called, in English, The Lightning Struck Tower, Fire Of Heaven, The Tower of Babel and The Devil's House.
In French Le Foudre
In Italian La Casa del Diavolo, La Torre, Il Fuoco, La Saetta.
And other names.

So, yes, the building on the card has been associated with both God and the Devil, which is odd.

Some decks don't have this card at all.
The Veiville deck has this weird tree instead (still struck by lightning though, if I remember right), but that has a lot of odd cards.
It was a pattern that didn't catch on like the Marseilles pattern did.

I'm sorry, I spend a lot of time over on a tarot forum. I can go on about this stuff for ages...
But you should hear the real Tarot Historians going for it!
They almost get violent over stuff like this!!!
There is a huge controversy over whether the falling figure behind the tower is actually falling from the tower or falling through a door that we can't see...

The god reference could be a reference to the Tower of Babel, which was intended to reach to heaven, and was destroyed by god.

Sadly the genesis of most of these images are lost in the mists of time and we just have to guess what was meant by them.

But n the whole the cards, and most of the images existed before the names did.
The earliest cards were untitled.
However...
There is no extant tower in any of the remaining early decks. (none of which are complete). either the tower has been lost from all of them, or it was a late addition to the deck.

By the way, if you all think I should shut the hell up about this tarot history stuff, just say!
Say 'Lillie! Enough history!!! We don't want to know that stuff!!!' :)
I won't mind.

[Doktor Estrella]

Don't be silly, Lillie, I find this tarot history rather engaging and it's adding a lot of perspective to the Marseilles Cards chapter (as well as some other novels that I have read that featured tarot readings in them).

All right, the next card in Childermass' reading was The Nine of Swords (http://taroteca.multiply.com/photos/album/193/Marseilles#87.jpg). According to the Tarot by Jonathan Dee, the Nine of Swords...

Keyword: Cruelty
Meaning: Anxiety and sleepless nights, spite and slander which undermine confidence. Suffering that is for eventual good, such as putting up with painful treatment in order to get better. Female health problems and, possibly, self-punishment and guilt.

I'm not entirely sure what to make of this card in regards to the events of the novel...during Vinculus' reading, the card was VIII La Justice, representing his weighing of the choice to stay in London or leave. At a guess, I think that this may be tied up in Childermass' dealings with Lascelles and Drawlight, but may also concern his feelings about the recently diminished health of Lady Pole.

Other thoughts?

[Lillie]

I have that book!
The deck that goes with it is pretty dire.
But the book is a fair introduction to reading the cards.

Sadly it tends to relate to the Waite meanings, codified by A E Waite in 1910.
These meanings are based on a kabbalistic system used by the Golden Dawn, and though Waite used some traditional meanings in his deck he changed the meanings of quite a few cards to suit the system.

However, not the nine of swords. For the Golden dawn this card was names 'The Lord of Cruelty and Despair'.

The late 18th century source I quoted for the Moon, the one by M. Le C. De M. says this about swords in general...

All the Swords predict only misfortunes, especially of odd number, still more so those that carry a bloody sword. Only the crowned sword of victory is a sign of a happy event in this suit.

The reference to a 'bloody sword' seems to indicate the author was using a differently coloured deck to the one I linked too.
There are many varieties in colouring and detail across different versions.

He also says that the Nine of Spades (Swords) is a disastrous card.

It's not one you would wish to get very often, and with the two preceding cards make a very bad start to the reading.

The problem with the TdM is the lack of knowledge about it's creation, and the intentions of it's creator.
Most modern decks (from 1910 onward) have a book that goes with the cards explaining the symbols used by the artist or creator.
In the case of Crowley the book just adds more puzzlement, but at least you can read what he said.

With the TdM we are all just whistling in the dark, really!

[Lillie]

Next card then?

Here he is, the Valet de Batons
http://taroteca.multiply.com/photos/album/193/Marseilles#149.jpg

Bloke with a stick.

This is one of the court cards.
In most readings they tend to mean people, individuals.
Where we see them appear in the book the always mean people, and the depiction is very literal.
Vinculus was the Page of Cups, who was covered with writing.
Strange was the Knight of wands (batons) who was on a horse holding a big stick.

You would not normally expect someone to conform so exactly with the image, but the England of the book is a world of magic, so who knows!

Batons in the TdM are often associated with the lower classes, with agriculture, with business, with servants. This ties in with the image of the club/stave/baton, whatever you want to call it.
Cups are the church, swords the military, coins money, merchants or trade.

So, anyone go any ideas who this guy is?

[amzolt]

Here's my brief interpretation of the cards mentioned in that chapter:

First Reading:

Hermit: Closed-off from the mainstream of life; Seeking Wisdom; Disciplined and Systems-oriented.

Fool: All-or-Nothing; Metaphysical Journey; Cosmic Risk-taking

Justice: Balance; Equity; Interaction; Feedback

Two of Wands: Radical Inspiration; Non-traditional Insight; Awareness of the Quest

Page of Cups: Water, water everywhere; Total Emotion; Servant of Feeling

Knight of Wands: Messenger of Inspiration; Guard of Motivation; Broadcasting Desire

Two of Swords: Transformation of Communication; Radical Intelligence; Speaking on Two Levels

Hanged Man: Sacrifice; Devotion; Unconscious Upwelling

World: Manifestation; Being (as opposed to Becoming); Actuality

Second Reading:

Moon: Compassion; Reflection; Nurturing

Tower: Impulse; Drive; Power

Nine of Swords: Gestation of Communication; Waning of Interaction; Nourishment of Mind

Page of Wands: Servant of Inspiration; Fire, fire everywhere; Total Intuition

Ten of Wands: End of a Cycle of Inspiration; Complete Intuition; Rebirth of Drive

Priestess: The Mysteries; Nurturance; The Unconscious

Wheel: Expansion; Assimilation; Philosophy

Two of Coins: Awareness of Worth; Radical Practicality; Breaking the Bonds of Materiality

King of Cups: Active Emotions; Inception of Belief; The Law of Feeling