Childermass

[Lillie]

To me the character of John Childermass is the most intriguing in the book.

I know a lot of other people like him too, so here is a thread for us to talk about him.

The first thing I wanted to talk about was his name.
Not John, there are plenty of Johns both in the book and out of it.
Unlike Childermass which is as rare as John is common.
In fact, as far as names in Britain go, it's unknown.

I have been busy on ancestry.
There are no Childermass births, deaths or marriages registered from the beginning of registration in 1837 to about 1910 (all I can search without paying)
There are no Childermass in the censuses from 1841 (the first national census) to 1901 9the latest avaliable one under the 100 years rule)

I cannot find a single Childermass in this country at all, whatsoever.

So, it's not a name.
If it was a name enough other people would have it.
We know where the word comes from. It is The feast of the Holy Innocents, Dec 28. The day that celebrates all the babies that Herod killed while he was failing to kill the baby Jesus (an event, of course, that never happened)
It is a Roman Catholic festival, and is not celebrated by Protestants.

So. John Childermass.
How did he get this name that is not a name?
We can assume that if he did not take his fathers name he was illegitimate, which would fit with the very little known about his Mother.
But if it is not a name then he did not take his mothers name either.
So, how come he has got it?

Well, there are a couple of probabilities that I can think of.

It could be that his mother (who would probably have been a catholic as protestants would not have been familiar with the day) gave him the surname at his baptism because it was either the day he was born or the day he was conceived (which would likely give him a birthday at the end of September) in order to hide his bastardy.

Or, she had a very, very good sense of humour...

Or both.

It is also possible that it might have been done to hide his mothers name. it seems that she was part of the criminal classes and might have wished to remain incognito on official records.
If this was the case then there is no obvious indication of bastardy. She could very well have been married, almost certainly to another criminal, and if she had wished to hide her identity doubtless her husband would have wished to do likewise.

Or he made the name up later to hide his origins.
Although this is unlikely as Lascelles knows that he is a 'whoreson' and 'the dregs of a Yorkshire gutter' and Childermass seems neither surprised at his knowledge or bothered by it, he certainly does no deny it, as though it was nothing he had ever tried to hide.

Anyone else got any thoughts?

[Doktor Estrella]

I can't remember if this was a common practice or something that I read in a novel (which doesn't necessarily excuse it from being a common practice), but if someone is a bastard child, doesn't his or her name get written down in the parish registry as whatever given name he or she possesses (or if he or she doesn't have a name, something biblical, like John or Mary) plus a surname that indicates their bastardy and what parish he or she hails from? So it's possible that whatever Yorkshire parish that Childermass comes from gave him that surname.

[Bracton]

I think that there are parallels between the Raven King and Childermass, not least in name. They both (occasionally) share the Christian name of John. Names are important in Clarke’s world, and the two most magically powerful creatures are never definitively named (RK and GwTDH); nor is Stephen Black who ends up wielding incredible power.

In a way Childermass’ obscurity of identity falls in with the Raven King’s. My mental images of them are similar, we at least know they have the same hair colour. Childermass also encounters English magic in its rawest of forms when he sits in Norrell’s library and is spoken to by the sky. It is significant that he is the only character who meets the Raven King in the entire novel.

[Lillie]

I can't remember if this was a common practice or something that I read in a novel (which doesn't necessarily excuse it from being a common practice), but if someone is a bastard child, doesn't his or her name get written down in the parish registry as whatever given name he or she possesses (or if he or she doesn't have a name, something biblical, like John or Mary) plus a surname that indicates their bastardy and what parish he or she hails from? So it's possible that whatever Yorkshire parish that Childermass comes from gave him that surname.

I looked it up here.

http://www.pricegen.com/resources/illegitimacy.htm

From the look of things, and this was long before civil registration began in 1837, really for a lot of people the only official document that proved someone's existence was the parish record of their baptism/christening.
The church would really have had no way of checking that the names/information given by the parents was correct unless it was a small rural parish where the parents were known.

However, you can't run a stable of child thieves in a small rural parish.
So, at least by the later part of the 1770's Childermass's mother was living in a large town or city such as Hull where it would be easy to lie to officials.

My husbands family were from Hull, and one branch persistently lied on all official documents and forms.
They lied about marriages, they used various different names, they just lied through their teeth all the time.
And they got away with it.
Cities, no one really cares in cities.

Most illegitimate children get their mothers names, and I suppose it is possible that Childermass was his mothers name.
However, it's still a non existent name and that just takes everything I wrote in the first post back a generation and applies it to Black Joan instead.

[Lillie]

I think that there are parallels between the Raven King and Childermass, not least in name. They both (occasionally) share the Christian name of John. Names are important in Clarke’s world, and the two most magically powerful creatures are never definitively named (RK and GwTDH); nor is Stephen Black who ends up wielding incredible power.

In a way Childermass’ obscurity of identity falls in with the Raven King’s. My mental images of them are similar, we at least know they have the same hair colour. Childermass also encounters English magic in its rawest of forms when he sits in Norrell’s library and is spoken to by the sky. It is significant that he is the only character who meets the Raven King in the entire novel.

There are a lot of parallels in the descriptions, aren't there?

And one thing I noticed was that Childermass is often described by comparing him to something. 'He looked like a character from a novel by Mrs Radcliff'. 'He had the look of a bailiff about him' that sort of thing.
And when Childermass meets the Raven King he is described in exactly the same way. 'The look of a methodist preacher or romantic poet'.

As well as that their descriptions are very similar, long, straight dark hair, pale faces (though at the end of the book Childermass is said to have a brown face, which contradicts every other description).
Childermass has black eyes, and in one passage the Raven King is said to have a 'pale gaze', though whether that is an actual physical description, or just a colourful way of describing his expression, I don't know.

Oh yeah, they both dress in black.
but The Raven Kings clothes are newer and more fashionable.

[Catherine of Winchester]

I personally like the idea of Childermass' name being given to him through choice rather than inheritance. The feast day seems like a good explanation, then, though it could equally be by reason of the date or something else. I have speculated a bit that 'Childermass' might somehow be related to his (eventual) inclusion in that band of child thieves - perhaps an odd sort of parallel between the children who were killed (and commemorated in the feast) and the children whose only connections to anyone may have been to their fellow pick-pockets and Black Joan. It would be a somewhat sarcastic or ironic bit of humor, I suppose.

As for Lascelles calling Childermass a 'whoreson' and the 'dregs of every Yorkshire gutter', I had always taken those to be the insults that happened to cross Lascelles' mind without any particular thought of their actual validity. At any rate, the notions of questioning one's birth and associating one with any manner of filth (dirt, sewage, etc.) are - and have been - common themes in insults.

[Lillie]

I personally like the idea of Childermass' name being given to him through choice rather than inheritance. The feast day seems like a good explanation, then, though it could equally be by reason of the date or something else. I have speculated a bit that 'Childermass' might somehow be related to his (eventual) inclusion in that band of child thieves - perhaps an odd sort of parallel between the children who were killed (and commemorated in the feast) and the children whose only connections to anyone may have been to their fellow pick-pockets and Black Joan. It would be a somewhat sarcastic or ironic bit of humor, I suppose.

What?
Like this was some kind of gang name, or something like that?

That is such a great idea!
I love it!

As for Lascelles calling Childermass a 'whoreson' and the 'dregs of every Yorkshire gutter', I had always taken those to be the insults that happened to cross Lascelles' mind without any particular thought of their actual validity. At any rate, the notions of questioning one's birth and associating one with any manner of filth (dirt, sewage, etc.) are - and have been - common themes in insults.

Yeah, Lascelles didn't have to know it was true, the thing is that it was true.
And usually when someone says something, either because they know, or because they scored a lucky hit, the person will react to it.
Childermass just shrugged it off.
I think that was the point I was making with that one...

[Lillie]

This has always bugged me about Childermass.

The milliner business.

That was some half arsed plan.

If you are going somewhere to pretend to be something you're not, unless you are very stupid, (which he isn't), then you at least make a damn effort. (which he didn't)

So what was that about?

Why the milliner charade?

[holly berries red]

Well, it having been determined that 'Childermass' does not exist as genuine English surname (Lillie), and assuming, from the little we know about Childermass's origins (his mother being known as 'Black Joan', possibly a prostitute, and the leader of a pack of child thieves) that he was born illegitimate and either given a made-up name by his mother or perhaps acquired the name Childermass later in his career ... is it possible that he took the name from the gang of child thieves? A mass of 'childer', anyone? Masses of children... a mass of children, unnamed, unloved...His name hints at a feral upbringing.

Another point is that English names that feature 'child' e.g. Goodchild, Fairchild etc are often references to fairy origins, or believed fairy ancestry. (Have looked online for a reference to qualify this statement, but I can't find any; it seems it is something I have known for too long to have any concrete evidence to support. Perhaps someone else knows where they can supply one?)
I always understood that Childermass's name was meant to hint to the reader that Childermass's lowly situation belied his true ancestry and that his interest in magic would eventually bear fruit, that he was every bit as skilful at magic as Norrell fancied himself, and perhaps more so. Which in the end proves true.

[Crucifer]

Not a particularly relevant post here, except to welcome holly berries red, and to say how wonderful your post was.

[Doktor Estrella]

Lillie, I always thought that the milliner business was meant to be seen through. It was just the basis of the ruse to talk to Vinculus and then use reason and bribery rather than subterfuge and the spells.

Welcome, Holly! I look forward to reading more of your posts :)